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Thread Archive => STAR 2018 => Topic started by: hhemstreet on July 12, 2018, 10:33:54 AM

Title: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: hhemstreet on July 12, 2018, 10:33:54 AM
All of the textual answers are in here:


http://www.hemko.com/star/surveyresults2018.pdf (http://www.hemko.com/star/surveyresults2018.pdf)


The year by year comparison of STAR's (the last eight) are here:


http://www.hemko.com/star/star18surveystats.pdf (http://www.hemko.com/star/star18surveystats.pdf)


Harry
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 12, 2018, 12:14:21 PM
Of all the STAR's I've attended (12 over 20 years) Avon in 2012 was the only one I recall their being serious amounts of food at the welcome reception, enough that every member had their fill, and there was food left over. I wonder if that is the primary reason for the very high rating for that year's welcome reception. (The Subway in the Christie Lodge prepared [and donated?] a large number of sandwiches, so much that there was some left over the next day or two being offered to members around the hotel during the daytime.) They also had those cool cup cake displays, I know many people who had seconds (and there were still plenty.)

I'm usually resolved to getting little to nothing to eat at these, because there is not often a lot of food, and if you were not there in the first 15-20 minutes it was already picked clean.

This club loves their food, that's for sure ;) 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 12, 2018, 12:39:08 PM
Oye, I have to say reading the text comments that some of these people don't want what STAR has always been, they want to make it into their style of event, be it
- make it longer, not enough time
- we don't need a fancy expensive hotel with a banquet room
- have it in September - STAR has been in June for decades, why change it now?


I will have to agree with the comments on the breakfast and the quality of the eggs, but right after this event I was at a work conference at a Marriott downtown Cleveland, and their eggs were just as bad. I just don't think you can make a large batch of eggs (maybe if from real not powdered eggs) and have them taste good as they sit in a warming tray for a period of time. I think the best breakfast I recall was in Taos 2010, with the southwest themed items and the chef (or other staff) there to help us, explain the sauces, etc. It is still great to be able to have that every morning, meet and catch up with other members, meet new members "may we join you?" and do some pre-ride planning.


I also see a recurring theme, well several actually but this one is big and heard this from a new member at the event as well. There are a lot of people looking for pre-planned, pre-organized rides led by somebody else, that they can simply join and have fun. I know that is the idea behind the ride boards, but we cannot force members to lead rides, and many are not comfortable leading a bunch of people they don't know (often on unfamiliar roads). Not sure how to cure this, but maybe help set new member/attendees expectations, so that they understand this is not how our rallies work. Not sure why they expect that, maybe other groups do their rallies like that, or they're accustomed to a poker run or other organized rides.


Set expectations, then people are not so disappointed.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: hhemstreet on July 12, 2018, 05:11:52 PM
Steve - That was great welcome reception in Avon. If you remember they also had keg(s) of beer and you could have as much as you wanted. It was the prefect reception - as much as you could eat and as much beer as you could drink - all provided FREE by the Christy Lodge! Unfortunately - no other venue has ever been or ever will be - that generous.

I have been reading these comments for 8 years and, at first, I wanted to just chuck them all, throw up my hands and say forget about it! However, we have made several improvements to STAR based on the comments. You just have to ignore some of the nastier comments.


It looks (at least to me) like folks don't understand that STAR (and the club) is run totally by volunteers. These volunteers spend a huge amount of time and effort organizing and setting up STAR. We don't / can't predict what the breakfast will taste like, we can't sample the banquet dinner - we are totally at the mercy of the hotel. We could just eliminate breakfast altogether - think how that would go over!


The volunteers do the best they can, and usually it turns out great for the majority of attendees, but there are those who expect it to be perfect.  Of course, if you don't like the way things are going, the best advice is to volunteer! That way you can have a direct influence on how things are organized.

I could go on and on but, like I say, I have been reading and analyzing these for eight years and have come to really treasure the comments that are basically "Thanks for a great STAR".
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 12, 2018, 05:52:19 PM
OK, I'm filtering through the comments now, and some are just ridiculous. One in particular about concealed carry to me was just not needed.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 12, 2018, 07:08:47 PM
I will just say that those that are directly involved with STAR planning and organizing really do pay attention to the comments, and really do try to anticipate everyone’s concerns and desires based on those comments. It does appear that the breakfast was negatively mentioned in many of the surveys, and I’m sure that will be addressed with next years hotel.  I’m very happy that there were so many positive comments and high ratings in so many areas.  Those few things that people found wrong?  If possible, they will be corrected in future events. It’s important to understand that something that one person may really dislike, another may truly like.  It’s important to understand that certain things are truly beyond the control of mere mortals. For example, the DMV does not consult the MSTA before beginning road construction or repair.  Sometimes these repairs start up after a route has been pre-ridden, inspected, and put out to the attendees.  Nothing anyone can do about thkings like that, but the organizers do try to anticipate those possibilities.  As Harry said...they are all just volunteers and their time and efforts are freely given, but are also sometimes limited by time and distance.  The BEST way to insure that ones concerns are addressed BEFORE any event is to offer to VOLUNTEER in the planning and organization of an event from the beginning.  Volunteers are ALWAYS WELCOME and always NEEDED.   ;D
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Ride4MS on July 12, 2018, 08:53:03 PM
Well, let me say a few words, coming from someone that worked very hard to make this a great event, and not knowing where to start.  I have only been to 2 STAR's in the past, 2017 Ark and last year in Colorado Spr.  Then, to take on such a huge accomplishment, I never thought it was going to turn out as good as it did.


To do that, I looked at and copied and pasted many of the comments from 2017, onto a sheet, that people did not like, and hoped that we could change, and also looked at what they did like and hoped to improve those also.


It seemed to have worked, as there have been many great comments.  And some not so great, which are probably some of the people that can never be happy and always seem to look for fault.  But, they also will not step up to volunteer either.  Just my observation from being in many other organizations.


FYI, I told Harry last Fall that I came from a job that we had goals that many times were not achievable.  And, I said that my goal for STAR 2018 was to make it the best STAR ever, knowing that was probably impossible, but it was my goal.  It is pretty hard to do that when you have so many people that have had experience with STAR's in the past, and this is my first, but that is what I shot for.  It seems from many of the comments, in La Crosse and the surveys and such that we came close to that goal.


I want to thank the many long time members, such as Harry and Dianne and others that were there to answer questions and offer advice, and Dennis for convincing me to take on this task. Without their help, it would not have been as successful.

I was told a few months ago, that this club does not seem to thank people when a job is well done, and not to worry.  Well, I cannot count how many times in La Crosse people thanked us for the hard work and great STAR. It was amazing how often we heard such great words in La Crosse from people that I did not know, and still do not know many of their names.  But, it made me feel good when long time members thanked me and said it was a great STAR.

Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RIDEMYST on July 12, 2018, 09:53:30 PM
I liked the comments for the most part. Yes some were unfair or simply ridiculous as pointed out. I agree with Harry’s comment 100% that some attendees simply don’t understand that this is a volunteer group and nobody gets paid. If there is a shortfall it’s more than likely not an oversight but is from the simple fact that no one has volunteered to handle that task. The more volunteers, the better the event. -JEP-


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Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: fz1grl on July 12, 2018, 11:23:27 PM
Carl it is sometimes a thankless job but you guys did an awesome job and some things are just beyond your control.  We've lost members after they have helped organize a STAR from the stress and comments from others.
I just wanted to take a moment to comment back on a few years ago not sure which STAR but it was back east some where when the breakfast was NOT included in the hotel price and the restaurant was not prepared and never for the entire week manage to get enough staff on site to be able to handle the morning traffic of folk that came in to order and PAY for a breakfast.  You went in knowing that it was going to be an hour or more to get a simple breakfast or you went somewhere else.
This year the first day I told them that I couldn't eat what they offered due to the seasonings and would it be too much trouble to just get a simple bowl of oatmeal and after the 2nd day they would smile at me and ask if I wanted my oatmeal :)   I know that a lot of folks would want something more substantial but that along with the juice and generally fruit or something else was always plenty for me to get me going. 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: DirtFlier on July 13, 2018, 06:01:51 AM
Denise - the "breakfast not included" STAR was probably in Staunton, VA at the Andrew Jackson hotel? 

Generally, too often people want to gripe about something without realizing that everyone is a volunteer.  And if you ask them to help they usually reply "Oh, no I'm here on vacation," without giving a thought to all the unpaid volunteers who also happen to be at STAR on vacation.  :-)

I thought it was a great STAR!   :trink39:
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 13, 2018, 09:39:48 AM
The breakfast was somewhat lacking, but the staff always helpful. Due to medications I need to keep my potassium up and do this by eating a banana daily. On the second morning I asked one of the staff if they had any,  and she came through. After that, I got my daily banana.

I guess what I'm getting at is if you don't speak up, how is anyone gonna know. I like the breakfast included option, as that sets my morning. I don't have to worry about going somewhere to get something, getting out of gear again, etc. etc. Walk to breakfast, gear up and go. Someone mentioned in those comments about wanting breakfast earlier. Not everyone lives farmer hours and is up before dawn.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: NinjaBob on July 13, 2018, 09:44:13 AM
Of the 25 stars I have attended this one is in my top 5 for sure. Great job by Carl and the other volunteers! I stay at 25 or 30 motel/hotel nights a year most have free breakfast and the Radisson's was as good as many if not most.
Way better than Super 8! Anyway, getting a local beer included in the lunch ride made up for any shortcoming in the brakfast!  :trink39:


Huge Thanks to all the volunteers and planners! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: normkern on July 13, 2018, 10:57:46 AM
Harry,

Thank you for posting the survey results from STAR. I read all the comments and found some suggestions I'm going to try with Fly-By Week in August.

Norm Kern
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 13, 2018, 01:07:07 PM
Harry I forgot about the free beer at that welcome reception, I must have had my share since I couldn't remember. Free and plentiful beer, food (including desert) is the recipe for a great welcome reception.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 13, 2018, 01:15:26 PM
Carl it is sometimes a thankless job but you guys did an awesome job and some things are just beyond your control.  We've lost members after they have helped organize a STAR from the stress and comments from others.
I just wanted to take a moment to comment back on a few years ago not sure which STAR but it was back east some where when the breakfast was NOT included in the hotel price and the restaurant was not prepared and never for the entire week manage to get enough staff on site to be able to handle the morning traffic of folk that came in to order and PAY for a breakfast.  You went in knowing that it was going to be an hour or more to get a simple breakfast or you went somewhere else.
This year the first day I told them that I couldn't eat what they offered due to the seasonings and would it be too much trouble to just get a simple bowl of oatmeal and after the 2nd day they would smile at me and ask if I wanted my oatmeal :)   I know that a lot of folks would want something more substantial but that along with the juice and generally fruit or something else was always plenty for me to get me going.
Denise Tosh may be right it was Staunton, I do recall going to one of the local coffee shops down the street for a light breakfast several mornings.


I also recall a bad experience in Charleston WV in 2003. They had a buffet breakfast, could not even get us silverware and beverages. They didn't even need to take our money or anything, just not prepared to deal with a crowd. After a couple days we just left, stopped somewhere for a quick bite (like McD) and told others who wanted a real breakfast to go eat before we left.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: hhemstreet on July 13, 2018, 01:17:28 PM
Steve - even with all the beer you could drink and all the food you could eat and a wonderful setting, we could only score a 91% which shows that this is a pretty hard to please crowd!

Some folks are never happy.
 :trink39:
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: DirtFlier on July 13, 2018, 04:15:23 PM
In Avon, the "free beer" was a 6-pack of normal Budweiser for each room and lots of beer was left unopened.  I know mine was.

Some people gripe about the lack of food or minimal food at the Welcome Reception but honestly, it's a difficult task to know how much food to put out.  I never go to that reception thinking the finger food will be a substitute for a real, sitdown dinner!

One of the difficult tasks with STAR is that it's most often a different hotel each time so the idea of "making it better next year" doesn't easily transfer to another hotel with totally different management.  The Christie Lodge in Avon has been the only facility used more than once as far as I know. 

And I agree with NinjaBob/Louisiana that La Crosse ranks right up there at or near the top!  :-)
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 13, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
In Avon, the "free beer" was a 6-pack of normal Budweiser for each room and lots of beer was left unopened.  I know mine was.

Some people gripe about the lack of food or minimal food at the Welcome Reception but honestly, it's a difficult task to know how much food to put out.  I never go to that reception thinking the finger food will be a substitute for a real, sitdown dinner!

One of the difficult tasks with STAR is that it's most often a different hotel each time so the idea of "making it better next year" doesn't easily transfer to another hotel with totally different management.  The Christie Lodge in Avon has been the only facility used more than once as far as I know. 

And I agree with Bob C/Louisiana that La Crosse ranks right up there at or near the top!  :-)
Must have been a different Avon, maybe 2000 or 2006, I was there in 2012 and don't recall the free beer, but had heard about that from other members, something our hosts (RIP Lynn Weas) at the Christie Lodge did.

I believe you're correct about repeat facility, I know a few locations repeated, Taos NM 2010 was the second time, and maybe 1-2 more other than Lexington KY which occurred while I've been a member. The two hotels for Lexington were quite different, first time was Holiday Inn (near outer edge of town right off I-64) second time we were right downtown (The Campbell House).
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: NinjaBob on July 13, 2018, 06:51:04 PM
We used the Sage Brush motel twice in Taos, very nice venue. We used the same motel in Mammoth Lakes both times but I can't remember the name. Another nice place.


Several of the STARS over the years have been part of a truly epic trip for me it is hard to pick a favorite. Sometimes friends you make at a STAR mean as much or  more than the event itself. By the way, a few that know me no I am a Bourbon fan and have been on a quest for the rarest Bourbon of all for the last few years. At the Old Crow bar in La Crosse not 4 blocks from the Radissson we stumbled on some Pappy Van Winkle 12 year!
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Landon on July 13, 2018, 09:59:00 PM
We all get that most are volunteers, but if you don't want to hear that breakfast was bad or the membership meeting was a downer, then quit asking people for their opinion on what needs improved. The survey was sent and the members gave their honest opinion, that doesn't make them terrible members. Isn't that really the whole point of the survey to see what we can improve and keep people coming back?


As the raffle bike coordinator I absolutely agree with the comment about being hounded to purchase tickets. It's exactly how I felt when trying to sell. Limit tickets sells at STAR, sell them at registration and then at the banquet. Hounding members all week did not produce more sells and people were ready to strangle the volunteers selling the night of the banquet as we had already asked them 20 times that week to buy tickets. Honestly, it sucked.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: HawkGTRider on July 13, 2018, 11:30:55 PM
I came to much the same conclusion in soliciting donations for the Ride For Kids. For the first few years after taking over from Tom Bartels, I'd plant myself at the door of whatever the venue was for the lunch ride. A few folks made donations, but I don't know that they wouldn't have done so at the banquet anyway. It just seemed like I was making a pest of myself...so I quit. I give up pretty much 2 full days to be in registration and an evening at the banquet. But our folks are already so generous, I don't see how asking them repeatedly would help. Our membership is amazing.


Ok...maybe we could use a few more people to step up to volunteer at the state level.
Title: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RIDEMYST on July 14, 2018, 02:32:53 AM
..........Hounding members all week did not produce more sells and people were ready to strangle the volunteers selling the night of the banquet as we had already asked them 20 times that week to buy tickets. Honestly, it sucked.

I know the ticket sales at STAR usually push us over the top for showing a profit on the raffle bike. This year’s bike wasn’t one of the more costly bikes that we have raffled and yet the profit margin was tight.....thus the push to sell tickets.
If members aren’t buying enough pre STAR raffle tickets to pay for the bike costs up front and are annoyed at the push for tickets sales at the event to make up for the deficit maybe it’s time we stop doing a raffle bike.
Why take the financial risk? -JEP-



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Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: brider on July 14, 2018, 07:46:48 AM
I don't recall (and that could just be me) seeing nearly as much pre star raffle bike reminders on the forum or FB. 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 14, 2018, 08:18:19 AM
The balancing act is comparing the cost of printing up and sending out raffle tickets to all members prior to STAR verses the increase in ticket sales that this would bring.  It would  certainly increase the cost of doing the raffle, but will there be enough extra ticket sales to make up for that increase?

Not to mention the amount of time and effort it takes to get those tickets sent out, and just who is going to do that? 

At this point I can’t imagine getting rid of the bike raffle, but somehow we need to make it an MSTA bike raffle and not just a STAR bike raffle.  We need to engage many more members than just those attending STAR.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: NinjaBob on July 14, 2018, 08:37:36 AM
Among my crowd the raffle bike is a big deal. I think that tickets sales depend a lot on the excitement level of the raffle bike.
I.e. new/or updated and popular in sales and media. Like the Africa Twin. The Versys not so much. Would like to know the ticket numbers for these two models.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 14, 2018, 10:59:34 AM
Among my crowd the raffle bike is a big deal. I think that tickets sales depend a lot on the excitement level of the raffle bike.
I.e. new/or updated and popular in sales and media. Like the Africa Twin. The Versys not so much. Would like to know the ticket numbers for these two models.

We sold 12,000 dollars worth of tickets for the Honda, but it had a cost of just over 11,000 dollars.  The Verseys cost about 7500 and ticket sales were just a little short of that...haven’t seen final numbers on it yet.

The one thing that everyone needs to know and understand is that they are not “stuck” with taking that bike.  The dealers that we have worked with in the past have always said that they would be willing to work something out if the winner wanted something different. 


I’ll also point out that in the survey for Colorado Springs we got several comments about the raffle bike.....most were that we needed something that was smaller, less expensive, and more of a Sport Touring bike than the Africa Twin.  The Verseys LT was all of those things.  Yet we sold a lot less tickets....go figure.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: erniee on July 14, 2018, 07:18:55 PM
What if we offer a choice between two bikes for the raffle. It might be fun to hear why everyone would pick one over the other. It might help with ticket sales.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 15, 2018, 11:33:57 AM
Being a past winner, I for one would hate to see the raffle bike go away - it's a real plus I think. However, with a declining membership, it only makes sense that ticket sales decline too. I was also wondering about the mailing of tickets and if it produced greater sales than the cost of mailing. Not sure what the answer is - maybe since all members get a STAR magazine quarterly, a page or two of tickets could be included there. Then it's up to the member to fill them out and mail them in with payment (or go to the website and do it.) That takes the cost off the club and it could be repeated in a couple issues at no additional cost to the MSTA.

I realize that means needing to know what the raffle bike is maybe before the end of the current year, and that may not be possible. I'm just throwing out ideas, in the hopes that it could spur others to do the same and maybe come up with a solution, or at least some possible options to consider.  :clap: 8)
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RIDEMYST on July 15, 2018, 02:31:26 PM
Getting back on my soap box here.

I just read through Harry’s survey results again, specifically the member comments.

Comment #36 requested more “action” photos of members on their bikes, hit close to home.

As the past photographer I am not offended and I don’t think this is an unreasonable request.
What this comment tells me however is that members don’t understand how these kind of things happen.
I have done the club photography for 12 years and then “stepped down” officially last year. Prior to retiring I had requested on the forum, Facebook and in StaReview for volunteers (hopefully 5 members) to take over that position. I got two! A huge thanks to Luis Santiago and Joe Thomas for stepping up. This year things didn’t work out for both of those guys for valid reasons and they could not attend STAR.
I did the photography, with the help once again, from Bryan Dunlap  (THANK YOU!!!!) but now for the 13th year.

Members need to understand that good things just don’t happen unless people step up and help!

Our EC is working on many important issues for the MSTA and a key issue is getting members to volunteer.

When you see how to make our club better ask yourself what can I do to help. It’s your club, help make it better!

Just my 2-cents. -JEP-



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Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 15, 2018, 03:08:19 PM
We hope to have a raffle bike for 2019 picked sooner rather than later....

We really need to make it an MSTA bike raffle and not just a STAR bike raffle.  The aim should be to have the bike paid for BEFORE STAR even starts.  Figuring out how to do that is the challenge.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: STLTHMSTA on July 15, 2018, 03:37:34 PM
I have yet to read the comments of the survey, only this posted here. Soooooo, Let me start with Carl's comments about organizing STAR. Buddy, you and Denise knocked it out of the park in your rookie year!! 
I for one am pretty flexible and can go with he flow most of the time, so I'm not offended by missing this feature or that one. The only thing I missed out on the the group ride thing. I didn't have adequet GPS to keep the group on track so I didn't sign up to lead. I would like turn by turn directions or I could have made up my own. I would have joined another had more been available. We'll work on that.
Harry, you killed it with the stats, survey and registration and we just can't thank you enough. Dennis, Patmo, Dianne and company.......thanks a million!!


And to the raffle bike. I had it from a reliable source that before the banquet we were still deep in the hole on the bike. Yes, we pestered folks for sale and I felt it too as I was waving tickets around. However, showing what a great group this is we almost made up the cost of the bike in a short time, but we may be in the hole on this one.
The number game is catching up with us on this one. I like Rich's idea of mailing tickets in StaReiw if possible.


Now, keeping with the baseball theme, did Bill Rusk notice the REDS swepped the Cubs in a 4 game series a couple weeks ago???  Just sayin', Bill.    Ride safe.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: brider on July 15, 2018, 06:36:47 PM



[size=0px]Now, keeping with the baseball theme, did Bill Rusk notice the REDS swept the Cubs in a 4 game series a couple weeks ago???  Just sayin', Bill.    Ride safe.[/size][/color]


Tom,  take a look at the standings today.  Check it real close.  See who is in 1st and last going into the all star break.  just sayin....


Back to the raffle bike for a second.  These are just my thought so take them for what they are worth. 


1.  STAR review is not going to make a difference.  It's not the delivery device it once was.


2. We have to keep the price point of the bike around what the Versys 650  is or we will continue to make very little or less as long as we keep it a members only raffle.


3.  It very well may be time to start looking at expanding the raffle outside of the membership if it "needs" to be a money maker.  It also might be a great way to expose others to the club.  Of course that means all the membership needs to get their duffs and sells tickets to their circle of friends outside of MSTA.  The winner might even pick a cruiser instead of a Sport tourer.  ugh.


4.  If expanding the raffle makes your tummy hurt move the STAR review to electronic only media.  I'm guessing the savings would make it possible for a no profit raffle bike due to the higher price point to not hurt us as much at least for a few years. 


For the record I think #3 is our best long term answer.   


Okay, flame suit on for baseball and the raffle bike!   ;D




 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 16, 2018, 09:18:13 AM


Bill....good points there


The Bike Raffle will be one of the key discussions in the next EC call.


One thing that needs to change is how people view it......


Seems to me that it has morphed into a STAR raffle and not an MSTA raffle.  We need to turn that around and will be discussing just HOW to do that.




REDS FOREVER......CUBBIES NEVER!    ;D
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 16, 2018, 11:28:32 AM
Among my crowd the raffle bike is a big deal. I think that tickets sales depend a lot on the excitement level of the raffle bike.
I.e. new/or updated and popular in sales and media. Like the Africa Twin. The Versys not so much. Would like to know the ticket numbers for these two models.

We sold 12,000 dollars worth of tickets for the Honda, but it had a cost of just over 11,000 dollars.  The Verseys cost about 7500 and ticket sales were just a little short of that...haven’t seen final numbers on it yet.

The one thing that everyone needs to know and understand is that they are not “stuck” with taking that bike.  The dealers that we have worked with in the past have always said that they would be willing to work something out if the winner wanted something different.


I’ll also point out that in the survey for Colorado Springs we got several comments about the raffle bike.....most were that we needed something that was smaller, less expensive, and more of a Sport Touring bike than the Africa Twin.  The Verseys LT was all of those things.  Yet we sold a lot less tickets....go figure.
Pat if the bolded is really true, that should be published with the raffle details. I don't think it always applies but I have heard that from several other members, usually people on the EC or those involved with the raffle. I can tell you that is certainly not well known among the average members.

(a portion of this post was removed by the user)
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 16, 2018, 02:34:42 PM
Steve....stop, please. There is no sense in going down this road and this becoming a he said..they said situation.

I’m sorry (even though I wasn’t involved in any way) that Rich had a problem with the dealer in Vermont.  That’s certainly not been the norm to the best of my knowledge.  Can we leave it at that?
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 16, 2018, 03:06:32 PM
I think the bigger issue is that not all members are aware that you might be able to get a different bike than what is being raffled off. Nowhere (as far as I recall) has that ever been publicized in the STAR literature or bike raffle literature. I too really think that needs to be in the raffle bike paperwork sent to members to encourage ticket purchases. Some people will just not want to buy tickets to win something they don't necessarily want. BUT, if they see they have an option to truly get a discount on something they may really want, then some may be encouraged to buy more tickets. Just my thoughts on it.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 16, 2018, 04:33:19 PM
Yes, my point was about the ability to swap for a different bike, I've heard that before as well, but not as part of any official communication to ALL members. Should be part of the raffle bike announcement, not something we here in discussion when somebody says "well I wasn't interested in that bike".
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Ohiomsta on July 16, 2018, 08:23:58 PM
Come on guys, you have got to know with out being told that dealers take bikes as trade ins. New or used you can trade a bike to a dealer.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RIDEMYST on July 17, 2018, 06:09:07 AM
Ditto to what Jon said but I have seen members actually post that they weren’t buying raffle tickets because they didn’t like that year’s bike.........go figure? -JEP-


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Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: bcd on July 17, 2018, 09:05:16 AM
I am also a member of the Porsche Club of America. They run multiple raffles per year for brand new Porsches (tickets cost significantly more than MSTA's). The prize includes the car plus an amount of cash that would, according to my calculations, cover nearly all of the tax bill.  The rules also specify that in states where it is legal, the winner may take a cash prize instead (which is closer to the car value, and not the car + cash value).

They also cap the number of raffle tickets per prize. When a certain sales threshold is reached, they add another prize. They typically give away 3 or 4 cars in a raffle.

Now, I'm not sure that these strategies would translate at all to our much smaller club, or to prizes of order $10k instead of $80k+. In fact, I doubt very much that adding prizes based on ticket sales would work for us. But I offer these as examples of varying raffle ideas. Maybe these can help us achieve a more profitable raffle.

Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 17, 2018, 09:23:47 AM
Come on guys, you have got to know with out being told that dealers take bikes as trade ins. New or used you can trade a bike to a dealer.
Yes Jon that is true. But we are talking about two different things, exchanging a prize for something else versus trading in something. Taking the new bike and using as a trade in is FAR DIFFERENT than the option to put the winnings toward a different bike. For me to trade in something, first I must own it - YES?????
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 17, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
Come on guys, you have got to know with out being told that dealers take bikes as trade ins. New or used you can trade a bike to a dealer.
Yes Jon that is true. But we are talking about two different things, exchanging a prize for something else versus trading in something. Taking the new bike and using as a trade in is FAR DIFFERENT than the option to put the winnings toward a different bike. For me to trade in something, first I must own it - YES?????
Yep, pretty shocked that anybody sees them as the same thing.

Sure I could win the bike, take possession, ride or ship it home (once properly titled and registered) and then trade it, now a used bike worth less than when it was new. Or I could try going to the dealer the club purchased it from and work out something with them. But that is on the bike winner, and not anything the club has worked out as part of the raffle and bike purchase from dealer/manufacturer.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Ohiomsta on July 17, 2018, 07:11:34 PM
No, you don't have to own it. You just ask the dealer how much of a credit they will give you on a different bike. The bike remains a new bike, never titled. It would be unlikely that you would get what the club paid the dealer for the bike (the dealer had to hold the bike and that costs him some$$$) Members have traded a bike they won with the dealer before.







Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: HawkGTRider on July 17, 2018, 07:16:11 PM
You don't want to try to trade a "new" bike in Tennessee. You're required to register it even if you haven't taken possession of the bike and pay sales tax on the retail value as part of that registration. And it's been my experience that once a bike has been registered, a dealership considers it a used bike even with zero miles on it.


Around here the only option would be to have the cash value of a particular model applied to the purchase price of a different model.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 17, 2018, 07:21:46 PM

The one thing that everyone needs to know and understand is that they are not “stuck” with taking that bike.  The dealers that we have worked with in the past have always said that they would be WILLING TO WORK SOMETHING OUT if the winner wanted something different. 

Someone please point out to me where I said that they would work out a full value exchange or that this was any type of agreement between the dealers/OEM and the club?

If someone thinks this says that, they are making an assumption.  This does not say exactly what that “something” would be nor does it say exactly whom they would work something out WITH.



Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: STLTHMSTA on July 17, 2018, 09:43:09 PM
"Trade in" was merely an expression. Not literally trading it in as if to another dealer. Wheelin' dealing' swapping' train', I got what you meant, Jon. 
having said that.... IF I had won the bike it would have transformed in to the Z900 that was on the dealers floor.  Did anyone mention what a great dealership that was?? Friendly helpful and NOT pushy.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: brider on July 18, 2018, 07:07:00 AM
I'm with Tom.  A Z900 would have been for me too.  However, all that said and done this year's winner sure looked happy to me. 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 18, 2018, 08:57:09 AM
I've talked with Pat and I get it now, sorry for any misunderstanding. Raffle bike winners has options, that is entirely between them and the dealer/manufacturer, MSTA is not involved and there is no formal agreement allowing any swapping. How easy it is to do will depend on the dealer, the state where the winner lives and other factors.

Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Ride4MS on July 18, 2018, 01:41:10 PM
For those people that did not know, Sherry and Doug brought 4 bikes to La Crosse.  2 ADV and 2 Sport Touring and went home five.


Doug sent me a message a few days ago, he rode Sherry's new Raffle Bike and like it so well, he went bought one for himself.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: naustin on July 18, 2018, 04:44:41 PM
Well after all that - I'd just like to pipe in and say that I agree with Pat regarding the fact that the raffle bike needs to be for the whole club, not just STAR attendees.   


Can you do some kind of online raffle system for the tickets, etc?   Make it a year-long fund-raiser and sell tickets non-stop from the day after STAR, until the next STAR when the bike is awarded.   


If its online, you can advertise the raffle in STAReview everytime it comes out, or even send emails on a monthly basis inviting people to click a link an buy another ticket.   


Also, you could include a Poll with 3 options attached to the raffle, and the more tickets you buy, the more votes you get on what the actual bike should be.   That way the majority of ticket buyers have some say in what the prize ends up being.   If you don't like the bike - you should have bought more tickets and thus submitted more votes.


Since I have an FJR as my primary Sport-Tourer, let me be the first to submit a vote for the Honda 250L Rally as a raffle bike next year.  MRSP only $6,200 with ABS.



Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 18, 2018, 05:25:54 PM
Well after all that - I'd just like to pipe in and say that I agree with Pat regarding the fact that the raffle bike needs to be for the whole club, not just STAR attendees.   


Can you do some kind of online raffle system for the tickets, etc?   Make it a year-long fund-raiser and sell tickets non-stop from the day after STAR, until the next STAR when the bike is awarded.   


If its online, you can advertise the raffle in STAReview everytime it comes out, or even send emails on a monthly basis inviting people to click a link an buy another ticket.   


Also, you could include a Poll with 3 options attached to the raffle, and the more tickets you buy, the more votes you get on what the actual bike should be.   That way the majority of ticket buyers have some say in what the prize ends up being.   If you don't like the bike - you should have bought more tickets and thus submitted more votes.


Since I have an FJR as my primary Sport-Tourer, let me be the first to submit a vote for the Honda 250L Rally as a raffle bike next year.  MRSP only $6,200 with ABS.




A few points
- raffle bike is open to ALL MSTA members, not just those attending STAR
-raffle tickets are sold online, usually starting in January, 6 months or so should be plenty
- tickets used to be mailed to every member, a very large expense that the EC decided was not worth it
- only time tickets are sold to STAR attendees (but not other members) is at the event

I'm really not sure what Pat meant with the statement about making it for all MSTA, and not just STAR. He said
"At this point I can’t imagine getting rid of the bike raffle, but somehow we need to make it an MSTA bike raffle and not just a STAR bike raffle.  We need to engage many more members than just those attending STAR."

As for selling tickets year round, and long before a bike is selected, doesn't sound realistic to me. Maybe some would buy, but will it generate more sales? Then add a complexity of ticket buyers voting on the bike being raffled, sounds like lot of extra work for the existing volunteers.

Not sure why members do or don't buy tickets, maybe we could get some feedback. I forgot to buy them at a discount, then got 5 at registration, but some years I haven't bought any, often when I have little interest in the bike selected.

PS  Sorry we have turned this thread into a discussion of the raffle bike.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: naustin on July 18, 2018, 09:37:39 PM
https://rallyup.com/raffles/ (https://rallyup.com/raffles/)
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 19, 2018, 08:33:31 AM


I'm really not sure what Pat meant with the statement about making it for all MSTA, and not just STAR. He said
"At this point I can’t imagine getting rid of the bike raffle, but somehow we need to make it an MSTA bike raffle and not just a STAR bike raffle.  We need to engage many more members than just those attending STAR."

“Perception is reality”......many of our members seem to perceive that this is a “STAR” raffle. 

Possibly because of how it is presented.  The raffle bike is announced as part of the STAR information.  The TICKETS purchased as part of registering for STAR. Physical tickets sales are only at STAR.  The drawing is at the STAR banquet.

Our pre-STAR sales were extremely dismal this past year.  In fact this was the first year where AT STAR sales exceeded PRE STAR sales.  In 2017 it was almost an even split.  Up until the last two years we have always had much higher pre-star sales than at-star sales, not even close.  We need to get back to that somehow.


It’s OK that this has turned into a raffle bike discussion.....based on the survey results, I would say that the raffle bike process and results are the #1 problem that came out of this year’s STAR.  The location, weather, hotel, roads, routes, etc. all seem to have come off as very popular.  But the raffle process...not so much.


I think that it is great that people are coming up with ideas on how to make it better.  Can’t keep doing the same old things and expecting it to get better on its own.  New ideas are always welcome!
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 19, 2018, 10:56:28 AM
Pat,

Curious where you get that perception on raffle bike being STAR vs. MSTA, did you hear that from some members. (I read the comments and didn't get that vibe,) Are they newer members, first time attendees? Is this perception related in some way to the change in no longer sending out tickets in the mail?. (How long ago was that change, I'd guess about 5 years.) The raffle bike was always given away at the banquet, tickets were sold at the banquet, and could also be bought when registering. So what's the root cause of this perception it is STAR only? (Really curious if not mailing is a primary factor. I could see those who never attend STAR feeling like its more trouble now to go online and buy them.)

Wasn't there a general raffle bike announcement in STAReview, or by email? Or was it really only tied to announcing STAR, and tickets sold as part of registering for STAR.

Nick (naustin),
As for the rallyup.com site, not sure how that solves all the problems or doesn't still mean work for the volunteers. We already have a way to sell tickets online, that is not the issue. The logistics of selling without picking a bike, having ticket purchase tied to some poll to vote on the bike, etc.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 19, 2018, 11:59:38 AM
Steve...

If you do a search on either the FB page or in this forum for the words “faffle Bike”, you will find that many times it is referred to as the STAR raffle bike, and that most of the time the discussion of the raffle bike is somehow tied to a STAR discussion. I’ve also heard this term many times in person from members.  The numbers in regards to ticket sales pre-STAR vs. on-site at STAR are also an indication in my mind that more and more members are associating the raffle with STAR.  I am certainly not saying that ALL members think this way.  But it seems to me that more and more members are trending this way.

This is not a yes/no, either/or, always/never question or answer....it’s more along the line of a often or rarely situation and how it is trending.  Seems to me that it used to be rare, but is becoming more common. Don’t even know if it’s a majority, but I’m hearing it enough to have a concern that too many of our members are thinking this way.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: PF Flyers on July 19, 2018, 12:08:45 PM
Also you must consider that the last 4 bikes were won by attendees. Lol

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Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: HawkGTRider on July 19, 2018, 01:14:54 PM
Also you must consider that the last 4 bikes were won by attendees. Lol

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


When the majority of tickets, or close to it, are being sold at STAR, it only makes sense that the winner is likely to be there. Seems like we had a lot of years when the winner was not there, and those years correspond to the years when more tickets were sold outside of STAR. All of that is pretty easy to understand.

In a slightly different direction, I wonder if we should go to a bi-annual (or even less frequent) bike raffle. Perhaps doing it less than every year would make it more interesting by adding more anticipation. Perhaps we're just getting a bit of "overload" when we're talking about next year's raffle almost as soon as this one is done. It would allow for more planning, longer to make a bike selection, etc. I used to think the bike raffle was a club member "benefit", but I've come to realize it's more of a benefit for the association itself (assuming you can separate the two). If we're struggling to make money on the bike raffle, something needs to change.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Landon on July 19, 2018, 03:24:09 PM

 If we're struggling to make money on the bike raffle, something needs to change.

Absolutely. If we cannot turn a profit we shouldn't do it. It doesn't help that membership declines and bike prices continue to rise. Simple economics, it makes the bike raffle tough to survive.

Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 19, 2018, 04:42:23 PM
I wish there was a way to verify this..... it is  my guess that the majority of tickets sold pre-STAR the last few years were to people planning to attend STAR.   But that’s just a guess on my part.

We know for sure that last year the sales AT STAR were 2X what we sold pre-STAR.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: brider on July 19, 2018, 05:07:09 PM
I wish there was a way to verify this..... it is  my guess that the majority of tickets sold pre-STAR the last few years were to people planning to attend STAR.   But that’s just a guess on my part.

We know for sure that last year the sales AT STAR were 2X what we sold pre-STAR.

I'm going to sound like a old man here but back when I was running the raffle and we did the mailing we sold a lot of tickets in advance each year.  I would guess 1/2 of the total.  The last year I ran it we did the discounted advance tickets and that drove a lots of sales even with it being electronic.  However we promoted it on the club website a bunch.    Last couple of years I think we have slipped away from promoting the raffle the way we used to do it.   I don't recall seeing any promotion on here or the devils spawn (FB)  Yes I think FB is a lousy tool for the club.)   My guess is Tom had similar results when he ran the raffle. 
 
Point of all this is if you look back to my original post everyone seems to be avoiding the best and maybe only way to make money year after year on a raffle bike.  We really need to look at opening it up to outside the club.  Its a 2 fold win for MSTA.  Profits go to the club and we just might gain some members in the process.   

Hell yes I would love to win a discounted bike (notice I did not say free.  It doesn't exist)  but its time we got real.  We made little to no profit on a great low price point M/C this year and people complained that the raffle folks were pushy.   Time to make a change. 

Flame suit on again. 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 19, 2018, 05:28:39 PM
I wish there was a way to verify this..... it is  my guess that the majority of tickets sold pre-STAR the last few years were to people planning to attend STAR.   But that’s just a guess on my part.

We know for sure that last year the sales AT STAR were 2X what we sold pre-STAR.
Just curious, are these number of tickets or ticket revenue?  Because I figure many of the pre-STAR tickets were sold at a discount($8 vs. $10), so ticket revenue may be a better measure.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is the Aerostitch suit (2nd prize, need to be present) I presume the club pays for that, somewhere in the 800-1000 range. Would dropping that be something we consider, to help break even or make more?

I agree if we are having trouble breaking even on a cheaper bike, we need to do something. Opening it up to non MSTA might be the answer, but that comes with its own set of issues.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 19, 2018, 06:36:17 PM

Just curious, are these number of tickets or ticket revenue?  Because I figure many of the pre-STAR tickets were sold at a discount($8 vs. $10), so ticket revenue may be a better measure.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is the Aerostitch suit (2nd prize, need to be present) I PRESUME the club pays for that, somewhere in the 800-1000 range. Would dropping that be something we consider, to help break even or make more?


Answers....


Dollars,,,because that’s what Tim can give us.  This year was the FIRST year that the sales at STAR exceeeded the pre-STAR sales.  Last year it was close to even. But the year before, and all of the prior years that we have numbers on, it was HUGELY n favor of PRE-STAR.  Sometimes as much as 10:1.

I did unintentionally misrepresent the actual ratio of pre-STAR to STAR sales.  I went back an rechecked the numbers Tim sent out last week.  The ratio was smaller, but we did have $1400 MORE in sales AT STAR, then we did in sales prior to STAR......that’s not an additional 1400 in sales at STAR, it’s that we matched the pre-sales dollars and then did 1400 dollars more.  (I hope that is clear).  At 10.00 per ticket that’s 100-140 more tickets being sold during STAR then were sold in all of the months prior.

You presume wrong.. :) .  Aerostitch DONATES the certificate every year.  The tire set certificates are also donated.


The only two years that we have lost money on the raffle were 2016/Vermont, and this past year.  The BMW given out in Vermont was by far the most expensive bike we have raffled off in recent history.  We lost $3677 on that raffle and $239 this past year. This year’s bike cost us a little over 1/2 what the BMW cost us. ( 7500 vs 14,900. ).  EVERY other year it has been a money maker for the club.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 19, 2018, 07:33:43 PM


You presume wrong.. :) .  Aerostitch DONATES the certificate every year.  The tire set certificates are also donated.


OK, that is really good to know. I think I have the solution!!! We need to find a sponsor to donate the bike. Simple - right. 8) :trink39: :trink39: :clap: ;D
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 19, 2018, 07:35:04 PM
Here is a few numbers that should concern everyone.....

Including this year, the last 9 bike raffles averaged $13,500 in sales, and it was pretty consistent every year.  One year (Johnson City) we did $18,000* in sales, this year we did $7,000*.  But, if you take that high and low out, we averaged $13,800!

* rounded to the closest 1000

This year we did $7,269.00 in sales.

We can’t explain that drop on the bike alone, or even a drop in #of Members (as that has stabilized over the last 3 years), or lack of effort or generosity on behalf of the STAR attendees and staff.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 19, 2018, 07:36:03 PM


You presume wrong.. :) .  Aerostitch DONATES the certificate every year.  The tire set certificates are also donated.


OK, that is really good to know. I think I have the solution!!! We need to find a sponsor to donate the bike. Simple - right. 8) :trink39: :trink39: :clap: ;D


Anyone know of a slightly used BMW that is available?  LOL 😂
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Ohiomsta on July 19, 2018, 07:47:38 PM
Somehow it seems clear to me. When the tickets were $5 each and every member was mailed tickets the bike made money.
Then the tickets were raised to $8/$10 and no tickets were mailed to the members and 2 out of 3 years the bike looses money.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 19, 2018, 08:09:37 PM


You presume wrong.. :) .  Aerostitch DONATES the certificate every year.  The tire set certificates are also donated.


OK, that is really good to know. I think I have the solution!!! We need to find a sponsor to donate the bike. Simple - right. 8) :trink39: :trink39: :clap: ;D


Anyone know of a slightly used BMW that is available?  LOL 😂
Now cut that out. After your posting the the numbers, makes me wonder if I need to change my by-line. :o ;) :-X
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: naustin on July 19, 2018, 10:52:26 PM
Does the actual prize have to be a bike?   Instead, 1/2 the proceeds of the ticket sales could be used toward smaller (but still top shelf) prizes like tires, or gift certificates for helmets, gear, luggage, etc.  Maybe the club could buy discounted gift cards from a particular vendor in exchange for advertising in the STAReview. 


That way, the club could guaranty a 50% Profit every year, whether ticket sales are $5k or $25k and vary the number of prizes/winners accordingly.  More people win, and have more chances to win.


Frankly, I’d be just as happy to win set of tires for my bike, as I would winning a bike I might not love.  I barely have time to ride the bike I liked enough to buy!


Just ideas.  Not saying any is a magic bullet, or even a good idea.  Just ideas.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Brick on July 20, 2018, 02:47:20 AM


You presume wrong.. :) .  Aerostitch DONATES the certificate every year.  The tire set certificates are also donated.


Hmmm... very interesting. During the 12 years I was involved with the HSTA/MSTA the early years Aerostich donated any riding suit... the later years in talking to Andy Goldfine he changed it to he donated 50% of any new suit. We the club paid the other 50%.
So it’s back to full donation... I like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 20, 2018, 07:17:35 AM
Somehow it seems clear to me. When the tickets were $5 each and every member was mailed tickets the bike made money.
Then the tickets were raised to $8/$10 and no tickets were mailed to the members and 2 out of 3 years the bike looses money.


The FIRST year, 2015, where the club went to exclusively on-ine for presale and didn’t mail out anything, we had 13,700 dollars in presale tickets and 1,900 at STAR. But the NEXT year it dipped to 7,500 and it’s gone down considerably over the last two years.

Your points are well taken though.  Online sales only doesn’t seem to be generating much enthusiasm.  Getting consistent physical mailed reminders that someone can touch, feel, and read seem to be far more effective.  For example...the “Save The Date” cards so many of us get for weddings and birthday party announcements.  We hang them on the refrigerator or by our desk and see them everyday, unlike an email that gets buried in a long list of saved ones.  When we got the tickets mailed out to us I would always put them with my other bills and buy them at the same time I was paying the other bills.  We don’t even need to actually send out tickets, with stubs for people to keep, we only need to send out an order form.  People can fill it out, send the bottom half back in, keep the top part for their records, and we can have the actual physical entires computer generated so that they match the ones sold at the event.  That way we aren’t printing up thousands of tickets that aren’t used, which cuts printing costs.


Sending out postcard “reminders” to encourage people to both purchase raffle tickets, and to attend STAR (put pictures of the bike and/or the STAR location on them) is something we can look at too.  Postcards are much less expensive to mail out, we can get bulk rates, and it can be easily automated so that it takes little or no labor on the part of anyone in the club to get them sent out.


There are lots of options and ways to do this.



Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Landon on July 20, 2018, 07:38:04 AM

Sending out postcard “reminders” to encourage people to both purchase raffle tickets, and to attend STAR (put pictures of the bike and/or the STAR location on them) is something we can look at too.  Postcards are much less expensive to mail out, we can get bulk rates, and it can be easily automated so that it takes little or no labor on the part of anyone in the club to get them sent out.


I like this idea (It beats the hell out of stuffing envelops and mailing stuff out). A postcard with a section that can be filled out, torn off, and sent back in with the money. But how does the info then get from the mailed back portion and generated into a ticket? I assume it will require someone to type the information into a computer so it can be printed on a ticket? I assume when a ticket is purchased online that the buyer types their info in and then Harry can automatically transfer that to a ticket? Of course that's just a guess, I'm not sure how Harry works his magic and gets the info on the tickets.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Ride4MS on July 20, 2018, 08:38:03 AM
Maybe a long time member can help with this question.  The bike raffle started when it was HSTA and I believe Honda gave a bike, or at least gave a very big discount.  Is that correct?
Bike prices have gone up and the way Honda and other companies do business have changed, so I can understand why they would no longer provide a bike, especially when it is no longer HSTA.


Boy, this is getting way off the original topic, "STAR survey results".  Yea, I know, I am not helping to stay on track.  But, I am interested in trying to find a resolution for the future, when we have such great interested talent such as Nick A.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 20, 2018, 09:39:10 AM

Just curious, are these number of tickets or ticket revenue?  Because I figure many of the pre-STAR tickets were sold at a discount($8 vs. $10), so ticket revenue may be a better measure.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is the Aerostitch suit (2nd prize, need to be present) I PRESUME the club pays for that, somewhere in the 800-1000 range. Would dropping that be something we consider, to help break even or make more?


Answers....


Dollars,,,because that’s what Tim can give us.  This year was the FIRST year that the sales at STAR exceeeded the pre-STAR sales.  Last year it was close to even. But the year before, and all of the prior years that we have numbers on, it was HUGELY n favor of PRE-STAR.  Sometimes as much as 10:1.

I did unintentionally misrepresent the actual ratio of pre-STAR to STAR sales.  I went back an rechecked the numbers Tim sent out last week.  The ratio was smaller, but we did have $1400 MORE in sales AT STAR, then we did in sales prior to STAR......that’s not an additional 1400 in sales at STAR, it’s that we matched the pre-sales dollars and then did 1400 dollars more.  (I hope that is clear).  At 10.00 per ticket that’s 100-140 more tickets being sold during STAR then were sold in all of the months prior.

You presume wrong.. :) .  Aerostitch DONATES the certificate every year.  The tire set certificates are also donated.


The only two years that we have lost money on the raffle were 2016/Vermont, and this past year.  The BMW given out in Vermont was by far the most expensive bike we have raffled off in recent history.  We lost $3677 on that raffle and $239 this past year. This year’s bike cost us a little over 1/2 what the BMW cost us. ( 7500 vs 14,900. ).  EVERY other year it has been a money maker for the club.
Thanks for the info Pat, I had never heard anything about Aerostitch donating that prize, so I wasn't going to assume they did. Nice to know we have some really good partners in the industry.


Rich is right, if only we could get somebody to donate a bike.


Those numbers show a major drop in ticket sales from 2016 to 2018, not sure about 2017. Wow, just read the other post with the numbers over last 9 years, major drop from average this year.


Not sure I can think of any explanation. Did the financial situation with the club, and the 2017 bike winner donating it back to the club impact sales?
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 20, 2018, 09:52:20 AM

Sending out postcard “reminders” to encourage people to both purchase raffle tickets, and to attend STAR (put pictures of the bike and/or the STAR location on them) is something we can look at too.  Postcards are much less expensive to mail out, we can get bulk rates, and it can be easily automated so that it takes little or no labor on the part of anyone in the club to get them sent out.


I like this idea (It beats the hell out of stuffing envelops and mailing stuff out). A postcard with a section that can be filled out, torn off, and sent back in with the money. But how does the info then get from the mailed back portion and generated into a ticket? I assume it will require someone to type the information into a computer so it can be printed on a ticket? I assume when a ticket is purchased online that the buyer types their info in and then Harry can automatically transfer that to a ticket? Of course that's just a guess, I'm not sure how Harry works his magic and gets the info on the tickets.

Pat said the the postcard would be a reminder about the raffle, not a way to actually purchase tickets. But that is a good idea. It would still require an envelope, and sending a check or other payment info. This may also help get some sales from those who still don't like doing stuff online. Tickets would be added the same way they did them at STAR, when I bought mine I saw Tim Macy adding them to a list, which I figure they took later and wrote out tickets to put in the barrel. (Yes that's more work for a volunteer.)


If STAR were later in the year I was going to suggest we could try selling tickets at the other events, but not sure there are enough before mid-June, or that we'd get many sales we wouldn't get otherwise (generally those attending events are involved, engaged and support the club regularly).


Hopefully we are giving Pat and the rest of the EC some good ideas, and not just spinning them in 100 different directions.


Carl,
Regarding the bike raffle and discounts from Honda, I had heard that too, in the past, the old HSTA days when the raffle bike was very often a Honda. Not sure how steep those discounts were, and that has impacted our ability to make a profit. But the bigger issue is very low ticket sales, especially this year.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 20, 2018, 10:13:10 AM
OK, so I'll go back to a suggestion I made back on page 2 or 3 of this thread I believe - with some tweaks. So, the postcards instead of being in a separate mailing could be included inside the STARReview say first issue of the year. Then maybe a separate mailing in April or May to try to generate additional interest. This of course would require that the raffle bike be chosen by near years end, so that in the first issue of the magazine it would be ready to go. I really think that if the magazine is supposed to be the official communication organ of the club, we should use it, since it's already an expense (and adding a page or 2 won't increase cost that much) and we all get it in the mail. Why can't there be a page of tickets printed in the magazine? And then the member just has to fill them in, write a check, address and envelope and mail it in. And then a couple months before STAR they get a postcard reminder in the mail to buy tickets.

And yes, hopefully we are giving the EC some ideas and not just making their heads spin.

As for the question on "does it have to be a bike raffle?" I think the answer is really no - but something tells me people would buy even fewer tickets if the prizes were just gift certificates for stuff, but I might be wrong.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 20, 2018, 10:56:02 AM
I’m not thinking that any of this has to be a do this-don’t do that, or do that-don’t do this, single solution scenario.  I’m more in favor of doing several things, but at different times.....

Direct mail....Letter....STAReview insert....post card reminders....blast e-mails....forum banners....Facebook link....etc.

They ALL have a place in the overall plan.  Some will be effective with some people, others willl be effective with other people.  There is no magic bullet here.  It all comes down to a cost:benefit relationship and what we can afford.  Getting back to basics,  but also taking advantage of newer options and opportunities if they make sense.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: NinjaBob on July 20, 2018, 08:22:32 PM
An idea, maybe hairbrained but an idea: annual membership poll. Best Sport Touring Motorcycle of the year. Whatever wins, we negotiate with the manufacturer for a big discount on that model in return for promotion rights. Should sell a lot of tickets since its the members' favoriite. If we can get a steep discount, we should make a nice profit. 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Paco Bulto on July 20, 2018, 10:21:09 PM
As far as Honda donating a bike, I heard that they donated a new Pacific Coast to our Founder one time, but don't know of any other time. I know that when I was Prez from 1999-2003, Honda sold us a bike at dealer cost.
 
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: DirtFlier on July 21, 2018, 05:53:14 AM
I believe American Honda so far has been the only "manufacturer" to offer us a bike at dealer net, mainly via our connections when the club was called HSTA and it still holds today thanks to Jon Seidel.  All the non-Honda bikes used for the STAR raffle have come from dealers who give us some sort of modest discount but that's only a guess?

NinjaBob - getting the "steep discount" may be a tough hill to climb especially if the model is popular and in short supply.  Maybe the member poll should have 3 favorites not just 1?
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 21, 2018, 07:23:16 AM
Would absolutely love to hear from all members as to what bike(s) they are interested in being raffled off.  Always looking for suggestions.  This has been a part of the after-STAR survey in the past.

Was the bike the problem?  Or something else?  In the past the sales were pretty consistent, no matter what bike was being raffled off. That leads to me believe that the bike wasn’t the biggest problem.

But with a 1000 members in the club.....if EVERYONE just bought 10.00 in raffle tickets we would have $10,000 dollars....that’s a great start toward getting something really really nice.

Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: NinjaBob on July 21, 2018, 08:04:05 AM
For me a big draw for the raffle has been what I perceive to be great odds. Many people love to gamble, not me because I feel the odds are typically stacked against me in a casino or a lottery. The MSTA raffle odds are much better. So I have bout at least 8 to 10 tickets just about every year. This year I was not excited about the Versys but still bought 20 tickets.




I am really puzzled by the low ticket sales!
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 21, 2018, 10:02:07 AM
Is it worth doing a poll to all members, by mail or tear out page from STAReview, asking for feedback on the raffle? What factors impact buying tickets, what bike would they be interested in, etc.

We have limited members here, more on Facebook but still not everyone, and the STAR survey is only done my attendees. If we're trying to figure out why so few tickets sold this year, we need to hear from more members.

Even an online survey could work, with the request to fill it out sent by email to all members.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: bcd on July 21, 2018, 10:19:17 AM
Like Bob, I'm not really a gambler. The bike raffle odds may be better than the state lottery, but I still don't expect to win. I view my ticket purchase as a donation to the club. It's not that I wouldn't want a free(ish) bike, but that's unlikely enough that it's not my motivation to buy tickets. Most raffle bikes, if I won I'd probably try to cut a deal with the dealer or sell it. I'd still come out ahead of the $40 or $50 I spent :-)

I do think Pat is right on target about using multiple means to advertise the raffle, to increase sales.

I also think it would be worth looking into making the prize either the bike or cash, possibly slightly less than the bike cost. The convenience of a cash payout to someone who isn't excited about a particular bike seems like a selling point. What I don't know is how this affects the legality of the raffle, or the negotiation with the supplying dealer.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 21, 2018, 10:50:30 AM
Like many others, I too am not a real gambler. I like the odds of winning the raffle bike even if 5,000 actual tickets are sold. Not many places you can you have a 1:5,000 chance at winning a $7-15k prize? I too don't expect to win, and it was the shock of a lifetime when I did. Those who were close when it happened can attest to that. I also look at the money spent on a ticket as a donation to the club, and once again this year bought 5-10 tickets, same last year and the year I won. And there are also other prizes given away that you must be present to win - maybe that is part of the reason people see this as a STAR versus MSTA raffle since the only prize you can actually win, if not present, is the bike.

Also not sure of the possible legal or tax implications of the raffle with a huge prize in cash (it might even vary by state). The potential plus to the winner of getting cash versus the bike is coming up with the $$ to pay the IRS and State tax would be easier; and then they could buy what they want whether it's a car, bike, or whatever.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Paco Bulto on July 23, 2018, 12:32:32 PM
My thoughts, if I may share.
I normally buy and returned raffle tickets when they were mailed. If I attended STAR, I tended to buy more there, as I have seen that at our raffle and at another that our dealer has each year to give away a Gold Wing, it seems that the odds of winning are a bit better if you buy right before the raffle. It has happened more than once at my dealer's raffle and I believe more than once at STAR. Regardless of that, this year I wasn't in the raffle. I was on another bike trip with my son during STAR, so didn't buy them there. It is no excuse, but without having the tickets in my outgoing mail folder, I wasn't reminded to send them in and so I forgot about going on line to buy them. I know that it costs time and money to mail tickets, but I think it is possible that we might get a better participation by sending tickets or having a page in STAReview with a ticket form that can be mailed.
As far as popularity of the bike, I am sure that has an effect on sales for some. I normally participate regardless of the bike, since I know that I don't have to keep the bike if I win, but I can still profit from winning. In 1996  I won a new Suzuki Bandit 600 in an AMA drawing. Since I had no use for it, I sold it, paid income taxes on the winnings and still had enough $$ left for me and Donna to take a nice vacation to Australia to visit relatives. Having said that, I believe that the popularity of a new exciting model does result in more sales, such as when we had newly introduced RC51 in 2000.
In any case, those are my thoughts for what they are worth. Bottom line is I think a newly introduced model bike with tickets available both on line and some type of hard copy may help spur sales. A page in several issues of STARreview would not add cost to ticket distribution, so I think that it would be worth a try.


Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: normkern on July 25, 2018, 09:13:48 AM
What is the objective of the bike raffle-
Raise money for the club?
Increase attendance at STAR?
Do it because we have always done it?
Something else?

Norm Kern

Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: stevegrab on July 25, 2018, 09:45:01 AM
What is the objective of the bike raffle-
Raise money for the club?
Increase attendance at STAR?
Do it because we have always done it?
Something else?

Norm Kern


I think the idea was to give away a great prize to the members, and make a bit of money on the process. I suspect when it was first proposed and done it had to at least cover the cost, and with a good discount from Honda the club found they could make money.

Not sure how it increases attendance at STAR, the Aerostitch and any other prizes offered could impact that since you need to be present to win those.

We continue to do it like many other things because we've always done it, and it has generally been a positive thing for the club, and not a major financial burden. Same as why we have breakfast buffet included at every STAR, have them at large venues that can host a banquet, etc. (Note some of those things appeared on the survey comments as things some members do not value.)

I don't want to continue doing it just because we have for many years, nor do I want to see it go away because of a few bad years of ticket sales, without some attempts to remedy that first.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 25, 2018, 11:59:37 AM
Lots of good ideas in this thread.  I’m sure we will be implementing many of them in the future.

It my opinion that the bike raffle is a great benefit for the members of this club.  It’s hard to find another raffle where your chance of winning a bike is so good.  It’s also a way to raise funds for the club.  Funds that can then be used to promote events and to promote the club, thus providing even more value to being a member of the club. I want to see it continue and I want to see even more members participate.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 25, 2018, 02:29:39 PM
Lots of good ideas in this thread.  I’m sure we will be implementing many of them in the future.

It my opinion that the bike raffle is a great benefit for the members of this club.  It’s hard to find another raffle where your chance of winning a bike is so good.  It’s also a way to raise funds for the club.  Funds that can then be used to promote events and to promote the club, thus providing even more value to being a member of the club. I want to see it continue and I want to see even more members participate.
I gotta agree with Pat here - it is a great member benefit and I personally don't believe opening it to non-members would help, except to put money in the clubs coffers. And if it's been going good for over 25 years, after just a few years of less than stellar performance don't think scrapping it is the best idea. Maybe having most prizes available to all members (not just those in attendance) could help sales. Looking forward to next year.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: TN2Wheeler on July 26, 2018, 06:09:49 PM


Come on guys, you have got to know with out being told that dealers take bikes as trade ins. New or used you can trade a bike to a dealer.
Yes Jon that is true. But we are talking about two different things, exchanging a prize for something else versus trading in something. Taking the new bike and using as a trade in is FAR DIFFERENT than the option to put the winnings toward a different bike. For me to trade in something, first I must own it - YES?????

And pay income tax on the full retail value.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: HawkGTRider on July 26, 2018, 06:17:20 PM


Come on guys, you have got to know with out being told that dealers take bikes as trade ins. New or used you can trade a bike to a dealer.
Yes Jon that is true. But we are talking about two different things, exchanging a prize for something else versus trading in something. Taking the new bike and using as a trade in is FAR DIFFERENT than the option to put the winnings toward a different bike. For me to trade in something, first I must own it - YES?????

And pay income tax on the full retail value.
That's certainly the way it seems to work. Of course, it all depends on what the 1099 has as the value of the bike.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 27, 2018, 09:46:00 AM


Come on guys, you have got to know with out being told that dealers take bikes as trade ins. New or used you can trade a bike to a dealer.
Yes Jon that is true. But we are talking about two different things, exchanging a prize for something else versus trading in something. Taking the new bike and using as a trade in is FAR DIFFERENT than the option to put the winnings toward a different bike. For me to trade in something, first I must own it - YES?????

And pay income tax on the full retail value.
That's certainly the way it seems to work. Of course, it all depends on what the 1099 has as the value of the bike.
But if you trade the "won" bike in, would you still get a 1099 on it?? And if so, then you are getting hit twice on sales taxes.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 27, 2018, 11:47:34 AM
Question.....if you win a bike, do you pay SALES tax? Or just income tax? Both? Neither? One, but not the other? Some other kind of tax?

Of course, this may depend on where you live as sales and state/local income tax laws vary from location to location.  Tennessee, for example, has no income tax, but has a very high sales tax (9 1/2% in some areas). The sales tax rate where I live is different than it is just across the river in Cincinnati, Ohio.  Some areas have no sales tax. 

But I would think that unless you live where there is no sales tax, you will pay sales tax on the purchase of a bike, trade-in or no trade-in.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 27, 2018, 03:13:41 PM
Question.....if you win a bike, do you pay SALES tax? Or just income tax? Both? Neither? One, but not the other? Some other kind of tax?

Of course, this may depend on where you live as sales and state/local income tax laws vary from location to location.  Tennessee, for example, has no income tax, but has a very high sales tax (9 1/2% in some areas). The sales tax rate where I live is different than it is just across the river in Cincinnati, Ohio.  Some areas have no sales tax. 

But I would think that unless you live where there is no sales tax, you will pay sales tax on the purchase of a bike, trade-in or no trade-in.
I'll be happy to answer based on my experience in 2016. I paid both State sales tax (6%) on the vehicle when I registered it and got an IRS Form1099-Misc from MSTA for the value of the win. That had to be declared on both my Federal and State Income tax returns. And since there was no tax withheld on those "earnings", when filing I had to pay the tax on that. Normally I get about $2k back in refunds, that year all in all it cost me about $4,200 and no fed or state tax refunds. Hope that helps. (PS - even when I registered my VFR which you Pat so graciously stored and delivered to me in Michigan, I paid sales tax at registration. Pretty sure I also did on my car when I first registered it in Michigan.)
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Patmo on July 27, 2018, 05:31:06 PM
Hmmm...wasn’t aware thst you had to pay SALES tax on winnings.  Wonder if that’s the same in other states/locations?
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: HawkGTRider on July 27, 2018, 08:31:05 PM
In Tennessee, you don't have to pay sales tax on a "won" bike...until you try to register it. At that time, the State will collect their 3# of flesh.
If you don't want to keep the "won" bike, you don't have to pay the sales tax...until you find out you can't sell the bike until you've registered it. And once again, the State collects its fees.


If I understand it, if you trade the bike in on a different bike, you will pay sales on the "won" bike, but only on the difference between the "won" bike and the new bike assuming the new bike is more expensive. If it happened to be less, then the State folks will just smile as they shrug their shoulders and say too bad.


At least that's the way I think it is in Tennessee.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: RichGrab on July 27, 2018, 08:55:32 PM
Pat - What Geoffrey said. The sales tax becomes due when you register it just like any vehicle. They asked me what it was worth, tried to get away with "Well I won it, so really none." They laughed and I put a value on it which they accepted.

Geoffrey - well, if you trade it for something else at the dealer and don't have to register it first, then you'd pay the sales tax on whatever the value is of the bike you actually buy (and I doubt the dealer is gonna let you trade for something cheaper and give you money back  ;D ).

Note - for income tax purposes, it all depends on what tax bracket you are in. I'm a poor, underpaid single guy, who works for a non-profit. My bike win increased my gross income by like 30%.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: Ride4MS on July 27, 2018, 11:08:51 PM
And in Minnesota, about 10 years ago, I was given a 1986 Gold Wing Interstate, by my cousin.  It was her Dad's, my Uncle and the agreement was to restore it and not sell it.  It had sat for about 10 years under a small roof, no sides on the shelter, dirt floor with about 1" bat crap on the seat.
I had to get a paper from her stating it was a gift and was worth less than $50.00 as is.  By the time I got done, with going to our local DMV twice, which as we have found out through the years, they do not know anything.  I finally went to the next town and they corrected all the forms and all I had to do is pay for the collector plate, as it is over 20 years old, and never have to buy another plate again.


The first DMV said I had to pay $131.00 sales tax and fees, which I did, because the form stating it was a gift did not mean anything.  They said Gold Wings are worth a fortune no matter what age or shape.  The 2nd DMV filled out forms, and the $131 was sent back from the state of MN to me in about 30 days.  The transfer and collector license was $10.00.
I also did not have to pay the license tab fees for all the years it was not licensed while sitting.


So, every state is different, but just giving some ideas here, so that if you are as lucky as Rich or Sherry this year, make sure the DMV knows how to process correctly.  And, every state will be different.


By the way, when Sherry got her raffle bike home, Husband Doug rode it, and liked the Versys so much, that he bought one for himself.
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: DirtFlier on July 28, 2018, 03:56:26 AM
Carl - you're correct about finding a DMW worker who knows the ropes making all the difference!
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: HawkGTRider on July 28, 2018, 05:20:40 AM
<snip>

By the way, when Sherry got her raffle bike home, Husband Doug rode it, and liked the Versys so much, that he bought one for himself.

That's outstanding!
Title: Re: STAR 2018 Full survey results
Post by: STLTHMSTA on July 28, 2018, 07:10:14 PM
My .02 worth here as I had some experience with this. Waaaaaay back in '97 I won the Honda Homecoming Grand Prize, a choice of 4 bikes they made at Marysville. To keep it short: the bike was sent to my local dealer (Middletown Hon-Kaw-Yam) and processed it like a new bike sale. Honda sent them a check for the value of the bike which I signed over to the dealer and I paid the sales tax as if I were buying the bike. So the state got theirs then and there, the 1099 was added to my income for that year and I then paid the income tax on that at Tax Time in April.


I also upgrade the Goldwing Aspencade to an SE and paid the difference. So my "FREE" motorcycle cost me about $7500 but where are ya gettin' such a deal on a new bike. Freedom isn't free whether your talking about our enemies or our government!


Also I have possession of a friends bike while he is out of the country. He notarized the title and I transferred it to me so I could tag it and ride it as my own. Locally here in Ohio they must not too anal about the sale tax and sticking you for all they can. I told the clerk he basically gave it to me and I paid only the fees as she listed it as a gift. To answer the question that popped in your head, I'll just give it back when he returns.
I rode that '23 year old VFR today and it's still sweet!!!!